Discussion:
Short connections...
(too old to reply)
Dave Laird
2003-12-19 20:08:04 UTC
Permalink
Good afternoon...

James, something appears to upsetting short.circuit.com's news gathering
efforts this afternoon, as I am seeing a number of shorted connections. Is
this something on my end or yours?

Dave
--
Dave Laird (***@kharma.net)
The Used Kharma Lot / The Phoenix Project
Web Page: http://www.kharma.net updated 11/17/2003
Usenet News server: news.kharma.net
Musicians Calendar and Database access: http://www.kharma.net/calendar.html

An automatic & random thought For the Minute:
Mix's Law:
There is nothing more permanent than a temporary building.
There is nothing more permanent than a temporary tax.
James Vahn
2003-12-20 01:14:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Laird
James, something appears to upsetting short.circuit.com's news gathering
efforts this afternoon, as I am seeing a number of shorted connections. Is
this something on my end or yours?
Mine.. newsx seems to be a little sensitive to timeouts. I was downloading
new kernel sources- 2.6.0 .. 2.4 is a terrible pig when it comes to sharing
a slow speed connection between various processes. Big ftp jobs take all
the bandwidth and you're seeing the result (quit reading the logs! ;-)

I'm so very glad to finally have an alternative to them in the new 2.6
series, hope it works as advertised. Building it now and will turn it
loose in a few hours.


--
James Vahn
2003-12-20 02:42:31 UTC
Permalink
So far, so good! :-)

~$ uname -a
Linux gonzo 2.6.0 #1 Fri Dec 19 18:32:49 PST 2003 i686 GNU/Linux
~$ uptime
18:39:40 up 1 min, 1 user, load average: 1.16, 0.40, 0.14


--
Dave Laird
2003-12-20 05:16:44 UTC
Permalink
Good evening, James...
Post by James Vahn
So far, so good! :-)
~$ uname -a
Linux gonzo 2.6.0 #1 Fri Dec 19 18:32:49 PST 2003 i686 GNU/Linux
~$ uptime
18:39:40 up 1 min, 1 user, load average: 1.16, 0.40, 0.14
I'm still trying to work out a viable solution for all the RedHat boxes that
are due to expire. Version 8.0 boxes expire December 31, 9.0 boxes sometime
in March of next year. Thus far I've looked at Mandrake, FreeBSD and a
purloined copy of BSD. At least at this point, since they use the same
kernel modules, I'm thinking along the lines of Mandrake, but that, too, may
change. Any suggestions?

Dave
--
Dave Laird (***@kharma.net)
The Used Kharma Lot / The Phoenix Project
Web Page: http://www.kharma.net updated 11/17/2003
Usenet News server: news.kharma.net
Musicians Calendar and Database access: http://www.kharma.net/calendar.html

An automatic & random thought For the Minute:
To do two things at once is to do neither.
-- Publilius Syrus
James Vahn
2003-12-20 15:46:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Laird
I'm still trying to work out a viable solution for all the RedHat boxes that
are due to expire. Version 8.0 boxes expire December 31, 9.0 boxes sometime
in March of next year. Thus far I've looked at Mandrake, FreeBSD and a
purloined copy of BSD. At least at this point, since they use the same
kernel modules, I'm thinking along the lines of Mandrake, but that, too, may
change. Any suggestions?
Well, I'm opposed to commercial distributions of Linux. I see them as
trying to upstage Microsoft and I simply don't want another Microsoft
owning my computer.

Putting that aside for a minute, let's say that you want to play the game.
Who are the major players? Seems to me that it's IBM via Novell via SuSE.



--
Dave Laird
2003-12-20 22:26:51 UTC
Permalink
Good afternoon, James...
Post by James Vahn
Well, I'm opposed to commercial distributions of Linux. I see them as
trying to upstage Microsoft and I simply don't want another Microsoft
owning my computer.
Putting that aside for a minute, let's say that you want to play the game.
Who are the major players? Seems to me that it's IBM via Novell via SuSE.
Well, yeah, I suppose. However, I'm with you 100%. I don't want another
Microsoft owning my computer, period. I remember Novell, I *worked* for that
blasphemous IBM, and I've worked for Mickey$oft. I wouldn't want either of
the three on my computer. Well, I suppose I *could* load and run AIX if I
really wanted to be obtuse, as I have a System 34 sitting downstairs that is
fully functional, and I could get a late-model System 36 for cheap. Boy
would *that* be sick.

On the other hand, Mandrake is pretty tame by comparison, and I don't have
to change my development tree in order to run it. Any other thoughts before
I start figuring out how much time this is all going to take? Please, no
Novell, even if it's disguised as Linux-SuSe. <sigh>

Dave
--
Dave Laird (***@kharma.net)
The Used Kharma Lot / The Phoenix Project
Web Page: http://www.kharma.net updated 11/17/2003
Usenet News server: news.kharma.net
Musicians Calendar and Database access: http://www.kharma.net/calendar.html

An automatic & random thought For the Minute:
It looks like it's up to me to save our skins. Get into that garbage chute,
flyboy!
-- Princess Leia Organa
James Vahn
2003-12-21 00:14:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Laird
Well, yeah, I suppose. However, I'm with you 100%. I don't want another
Microsoft owning my computer, period.
Ok, gotcha. But why encourage 'em? Users using, folks get to talking
and then there's a buzz. Next thing you know there's another bill to
pay. I can remember when it was typical of people to steal Windows, yet
Microsoft grew tremendously during that time in spite of it.
Post by Dave Laird
On the other hand, Mandrake is pretty tame by comparison, and I don't have
to change my development tree in order to run it.
Then there's no doubt. Why the hesitation?
Post by Dave Laird
Any other thoughts before I start figuring out how much time this is
all going to take?
GUI configuration tools? Probably means dual booting or separate
machines, taking lots of notes. 4 hours! :-)



--
Dave Laird
2003-12-21 13:22:40 UTC
Permalink
G'morning, James...
Post by James Vahn
Ok, gotcha. But why encourage 'em? Users using, folks get to talking
and then there's a buzz. Next thing you know there's another bill to
pay. I can remember when it was typical of people to steal Windows, yet
Microsoft grew tremendously during that time in spite of it.
<laughing to myself> Yes, I remember the number of times I asked users in
*very* prestigious Spokane law firms for their Windows CD's only to discover
all they had were copies of the O/S someone had made for them, if that. So
much for Gate's fancy logo and hologram on the front of the software manual,
sez I. ;-)
Post by James Vahn
Post by Dave Laird
On the other hand, Mandrake is pretty tame by comparison, and I don't
have to change my development tree in order to run it.
Then there's no doubt. Why the hesitation?
Mostly because of skepticism, and because it never hurts in making such
decisions to have *too* much information about what the "other guys" are
doing. If their development tree was more security-oriented, although it's
been coming up in the world really fast, I might consider Yellow Dog,
something I hadn't even heard of until the other day, when someone else sent
me a note in e-mail regarding my query, here.

Several people have spoken highly of FreeBSD and BSD, but the installation
and configuration is a bit daunting, although I've already built a FreeBSD
box to "test" my knowledge of true Unix, pending their next permutation,
which is supposed to fix the bugs in the installation program from this
time. That, plus it breaks practically every bit of work I've put into
Kharma in the last five years, <sigh> including the newly-installed kernel.
Post by James Vahn
Post by Dave Laird
Any other thoughts before I start figuring out how much time this is
all going to take?
GUI configuration tools? Probably means dual booting or separate
machines, taking lots of notes. 4 hours! :-)
You keep doing that I might end up in Debian yet. <laughing, but not at
Debian.> Debian does a *lot* of things I've come to expect of RedHat,
including its firewall, but it also uses a different set of development
libraries and the tree is different, too. Plus it uses its own up2date
program. Depending upon how the Mandrake test install goes, I might
seriously consider it yet. Thanks for your thoughts, though. Thank god I've
still got some time before this version of RedHat expires.

Dave
--
Dave Laird (***@kharma.net)
The Used Kharma Lot / The Phoenix Project
Web Page: http://www.kharma.net updated 11/17/2003
Usenet News server: news.kharma.net
Musicians Calendar and Database access: http://www.kharma.net/calendar.html

An automatic & random thought For the Minute:
When I was a boy I was told that anybody could become President. Now
I'm beginning to believe it.
-- Clarence Darrow
James Vahn
2003-12-21 19:15:14 UTC
Permalink
I might consider Yellow Dog, something I hadn't even heard of until
the other day, when someone else sent me a note in e-mail regarding
my query, here.
I'm thinking that Yellow Dog is for the Mac. No?

[FreeBSD]
time. That, plus it breaks practically every bit of work I've put into
Kharma in the last five years, <sigh> including the newly-installed kernel.
Well, yes, you'd be running a FreeBSD kernel. I haven't looked at
FreeBSD since their 4.1 version, most of it seemed to center around
a Linux emulator of some sort. (why would I want to do that?)

Btw, there's a Debian project called "GNU/FreeBSD" making slow progress.
I think the goal is to have a "Linux" system (in the general sense of
the term) running a FreeBSD kernel.
Debian does a *lot* of things I've come to expect of RedHat,
including its firewall,
The basic system uses inetd. You know: "all: all" in /etc/hosts.deny

There are several firewalls based on ipchains/tables to choose from.
Two for KDE look interesting: guarddog and guidedog, the former being
the actual firewall setup and the latter some sort of NAT/IPfwd gizmo.

I'm fairly certain that you can dump your Red Hat ipchains/tables rules
to an appropriate filename in /etc and thus recycle your existing
rules..
but it also uses a different set of development libraries and the
tree is different, too.
In what way? I have to claim complete ignorance here and it seems to be a
important point.
Plus it uses its own up2date program.
Since 1993. I think you'll get over that one pretty quick. A session
with one of them might go like this:

~# aptitude install kde
<churn churn>
Will use 280 megs of disk storage, proceed? Y/n

"Gawd. Looks like a flippin cartoon. I'm deleting it."

~# aptitude remove --purge kde
<churn churn>
Will FREE 280 megs, proceed? Y/n

"Good riddance. Hey! Debian 3.1-beta is here. Let's check it out."

~# aptitude dist-upgrade -t testing
<churn churn>

"Bah, too many bugs. I'm goin back."

~# aptitude dist-upgrade -t stable
<churn churn>

etc...etc...etc..

--
Dave Laird
2003-12-22 03:50:13 UTC
Permalink
Good evening, James...
Post by James Vahn
I'm thinking that Yellow Dog is for the Mac. No?
That's what I was told, but I haven't decided whether to run some Mac
hardware I've got laying around here, yet. However, I'm hearing a *lot* of
glowing comments about their Linux-based GUI lately, and at least I owe it
to myself to take a look once in awhile to see what progress they're making.
Some of their Mac-based servers are really robust, once you get past the GUI
crap. ;-)
Post by James Vahn
[FreeBSD]
Post by Dave Laird
time. That, plus it breaks practically every bit of work I've put into
Kharma in the last five years, <sigh> including the newly-installed kernel.
Well, yes, you'd be running a FreeBSD kernel. I haven't looked at
FreeBSD since their 4.1 version, most of it seemed to center around
a Linux emulator of some sort. (why would I want to do that?)
Yes, my point exactly. All the color, dazzling GUI-stuph, power and speed of
unix while emulating Linux. Duh.
Post by James Vahn
Btw, there's a Debian project called "GNU/FreeBSD" making slow progress.
I think the goal is to have a "Linux" system (in the general sense of
the term) running a FreeBSD kernel.
Hmmm. Now *that* might get me even more interested. The FreeBSD kernel can't
be any worse than the present RedHat kernel. Why, I can even remember when a
standard Linux kernel would fit on a floppy disk... <sigh>
Post by James Vahn
Post by Dave Laird
Debian does a *lot* of things I've come to expect of RedHat,
including its firewall,
The basic system uses inetd. You know: "all: all" in /etc/hosts.deny
There are several firewalls based on ipchains/tables to choose from.
Two for KDE look interesting: guarddog and guidedog, the former being
the actual firewall setup and the latter some sort of NAT/IPfwd gizmo.
I'm fairly certain that you can dump your Red Hat ipchains/tables rules
to an appropriate filename in /etc and thus recycle your existing
rules..
That's what I was gathering in browsing their website(s) earlier this
evening, and given the 330+ filters I've written for IPTables, I don't know
if I want to retype everything from scratch just yet. Having that and most
of the same applications would make this a viable transition in my opinion.
Post by James Vahn
Post by Dave Laird
but it also uses a different set of development libraries and the
tree is different, too.
In what way? I have to claim complete ignorance here and it seems to be a
important point.
Take the battle between KDE and Gnome, for example. RedHat stashes the
libraries for both development trees in a certain place and order. The last
time I tried installing Debian atop a RedHat tree, both ended up in
different places beneath /lib, and there was a general state of confusion.
I've had KDE running sweetly now for over a year, first under Mandrake and
now RedHat, and all the macros and scripts I run on the workstation are
cross-compatible with the server for doing stupid maintenance thingees.

As far as the workstation goes, I use a series of gnu libraries that were
customized heavily during the compile (I installed KDE from source the last
time) to compensate for my television video card, the scanner and all the
other odd hardware I've managed to "tweak" into functionality. I'm scared
half to death of trying the same thing in Debian, however, that, too, may
come to pass shortly.

I am seriously considering building a workstation out of Debian atop the
RedHat system I currently use. I don't *like* RedHat anymore. I don't like
their politics, and I certainly don't appreciate the way they just dumped
their open source commitment in favor of a for-fee platform. Hell, I've been
with open source software now for nearly a decade, never been compromised,
hacked or even messed up my mailer too badly, although I *did* manage to end
up in a list of open-mail relays for a mercifully short time.
Post by James Vahn
Post by Dave Laird
Plus it uses its own up2date program.
Since 1993. I think you'll get over that one pretty quick. A session
~# aptitude install kde
<churn churn>
Will use 280 megs of disk storage, proceed? Y/n
"Gawd. Looks like a flippin cartoon. I'm deleting it."
~# aptitude remove --purge kde
<churn churn>
Will FREE 280 megs, proceed? Y/n
"Good riddance. Hey! Debian 3.1-beta is here. Let's check it out."
~# aptitude dist-upgrade -t testing
<churn churn>
"Bah, too many bugs. I'm goin back."
~# aptitude dist-upgrade -t stable
<churn churn>
<laughing> That simple, huh? I think I'm going to build the BSD box into a
Debian box and take a gander at this myself. It's the only *disposable* box
in my entire network, just for that reason alone.

Dave
--
Dave Laird (***@kharma.net)
The Used Kharma Lot / The Phoenix Project
Web Page: http://www.kharma.net updated 11/17/2003
Usenet News server: news.kharma.net
Musicians Calendar and Database access: http://www.kharma.net/calendar.html

An automatic & random thought For the Minute:
Alea iacta est.
[The die is cast]
-- Gaius Julius Caesar
James Vahn
2003-12-22 05:33:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Laird
Post by James Vahn
I'm fairly certain that you can dump your Red Hat ipchains/tables rules
to an appropriate filename in /etc and thus recycle your existing
rules..
That's what I was gathering in browsing their website(s) earlier this
evening, and given the 330+ filters I've written for IPTables, I don't know
if I want to retype everything from scratch just yet. Having that and most
of the same applications would make this a viable transition in my opinion.
Every reboot and shutdown, a script is called to save and restore the
firewall rules. /sbin/ipchains-save I never bothered with iptables,
unconcerned.
Post by Dave Laird
Post by James Vahn
but it also uses a different set of development libraries and the
tree is different, too.
In what way? I have to claim complete ignorance here and it seems to be a
important point.
Take the battle between KDE and Gnome, for example. RedHat stashes the
libraries for both development trees in a certain place and order. The last
time I tried installing Debian atop a RedHat tree,
Oh heavens, I wouldn't do that. But then again I'm not sure of your
motives for doing so. I would consider dropping RH libs in place
afterwords, one at a time, if for some reason Debian versions weren't
already available. But installing on top of a foreign set of files is
like sitting on a wet toilet seat. ;-)
Post by Dave Laird
As far as the workstation goes, I use a series of gnu libraries that were
customized heavily during the compile (I installed KDE from source the last
time) to compensate for my television video card, the scanner and all the
other odd hardware I've managed to "tweak" into functionality. I'm scared
half to death of trying the same thing in Debian, however, that, too, may
come to pass shortly.
Probably isn't necessary. There are debs at KDE, but I'd be leary of
installing third party packages that will eventually be incorporated
later on - there's no guarantee that there won't be conflicts down the
road. I run a few, kplayer/mplayer and k3b, but that's different than
the half-zillion packages in KDE.
Post by Dave Laird
I am seriously considering building a workstation out of Debian atop the
RedHat system I currently use.
no no... If it works at all, it'll be difficult to maintain. There are
most likely packages already done up for you.
Post by Dave Laird
Post by James Vahn
~# aptitude dist-upgrade -t stable
<churn churn>
<laughing> That simple, huh?
I downgraded once just to see and it worked. It missed one or two packages
and failed to restart something, but it was easy to fix. This requires the
use of an /etc/apt/preferences file that sets the target to a score of
1000 to allow the downgrades.
Post by Dave Laird
I think I'm going to build the BSD box into a
Debian box and take a gander at this myself. It's the only *disposable* box
in my entire network, just for that reason alone.
Use the "testing" version for KDE 3.1.4. You can install it using the
"stable" floppy images. Just pick nothing for tasksel or dselect to do,
then point /etc/apt/sources.list to testing:

deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian stable main contrib non-free
deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian testing main contrib non-free

Run "apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade" and you're then "up2date".
<chuckle>

"stable" packages are about a year old. I run a mix of unstable and
testing. There's a snag that will keep KDE from installing, for some
reason a dependancy was removed from the archive (libsensors-1debian1)
and will have to be located from another source. I have it here if you
need it. This is a temporary condition.

--

Dave Laird
2003-12-20 05:05:18 UTC
Permalink
G'evening, James...
Post by James Vahn
Mine.. newsx seems to be a little sensitive to timeouts. I was downloading
new kernel sources- 2.6.0 .. 2.4 is a terrible pig when it comes to
sharing a slow speed connection between various processes. Big ftp jobs
take all the bandwidth and you're seeing the result (quit reading the
logs! ;-)
Remember your own words to me about eight years ago: Grep is your friend. I
search for four keywords in the news.notice file, and pump the output into a
text file which is mailed to me every four hours. Connect, short read and
access denied are but a few on the list of keywords. 8-)
Post by James Vahn
I'm so very glad to finally have an alternative to them in the new 2.6
series, hope it works as advertised. Building it now and will turn it
loose in a few hours.
I'm still waiting for RedHat to actually get a valid signature on any of the
later kernels on their ftp site. They *all* seem to have invalid signatures,
and I won't touch'em as a result. <sigh>

Dave
--
Dave Laird (***@kharma.net)
The Used Kharma Lot / The Phoenix Project
Web Page: http://www.kharma.net updated 11/17/2003
Usenet News server: news.kharma.net
Musicians Calendar and Database access: http://www.kharma.net/calendar.html

An automatic & random thought For the Minute:
Bunker's Admonition:
You cannot buy beer; you can only rent it.
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